S7 E6: Brown v. Board at 70: Still Separate, Still Unequal

Episode Transcript

Kanya Bennett: Welcome to Pod for the Cause, the official podcast of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and the Leadership Conference Education Fund, where we take on the critical civil and human rights issues of our day. I’m your host, Kanya Bennett, coming to you from our nation’s capital, Washington, D. C. Pod for the Cause has returned from its April spring break, and as we head back to school and work and business as usual in May, the 70th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education is top of mind. That’s right. Brown v. Board is 70. It has been 70 years since the Supreme Court’s landmark Brown v. Board decision, but the sobering reality is that American schools remain starkly separate and profoundly unequal despite the Supreme Court’s historic declaration against racial segregation on May 17th, 1954. We have some sobering facts to contend with. Over half of the nation’s students find themselves in racially concentrated school districts where segregation persists, and educational resources vary widely along racial and socio- economic lines. Data also shows that as our Black and Brown students are denied educational opportunities, they are disproportionately represented within the criminal legal system, demonstrating a school- to- prison pipeline. As we recognize the anniversary of Brown v. Board, we must reckon with our separate and unequal history that continues to plague us. Today’s guests are here to remind us that the fight for educational equality is far from over and that urgent action is needed to address the ongoing legacy of segregation in our schools. Joining me on Pod for the Cause today are three education experts and advocates who are working to realize the promise of Brown day in and day out. Let’s first welcome Saba Bireda, co- founder and chief counsel of Brown’s Promise. Welcome Saba. Thank you for being here today.

Saba Bireda: Thanks for having me.

Kanya Bennett: We are joined by Hamida Labi, my former ACLU colleague and currently senior policy counsel at the Legal Defense Fund. Welcome Hamida. Thank you for your time today.

Hamida Labi: Thank you, Kanya. Excited to be here.

Kanya Bennett: And we also have our very own Liz King with us today. Liz is the senior program director for Education Equity here at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. She is our in- house ed expert. Welcome, Liz. Thank you for joining Pod for the Cause.

Liz King: Thanks, Kanya. Glad to be here.

Kanya Bennett: Hamida, let’s start with you. It was the Legal Defense Fund’s great legal minds and courageous clients that achieved the victory in Brown v. Board, in which the doctrine of separate but equal was deemed unconstitutional. In our nation’s fight for civil rights, Brown marked a defining moment in US history. LDF has acknowledged, however, that the legal win in Brown did not transform the country overnight, and much work remains. With Brown at 70, how will LDF acknowledge the anniversary and prioritize the work ahead?

Hamida Labi: We are so very excited to be here to discuss this seminal case and what it means for racial justice and educational equity today. Well, at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, we commemorate and rededicate ourselves each year to the legacy of Brown. We are so excited to embark on a year- long celebration for the 70th anniversary of the case that transformed America. Seven decades have passed since the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that Black people must be treated as equal persons deserving of the full rights of citizenship under the law. A crowning achievement for LDF founder Thurgood Marshall, alongside other visionary LDF attorneys. Brown is the culmination of legal acumen and political activism working together to challenge the hypocrisy of a democracy resting upon a racial hierarchy. And while this is wildly celebrated as an illustrious example of the strength of our constitutional principles, it would be a grave mistake to perceive Brown as the end rather than the means of our pursuit of racial equality. Despite progress, the ultimate goal of Brown was to guarantee equal access to a quality educational experience that respects the intelligence, dignity, and humanity of Black students. While our nation no longer condones explicit state- sanctioned racial segregation, we remain in this struggle for equality post- Brown. Let’s look at the data. According to the government accountability office, more than a third of students, that’s about 80. 5 million students, attended schools where 75% or more were of a single race or ethnicity. During the 2020 and 2021 school year. A nationwide analysis of school funding equity found that school districts with the most students of color, on average, received 16% less in states and local revenue than districts with the fewest students of color. If we take a specific state example, in Mississippi, Black students comprise 46% of the overall student population but make up 73% of students attending high- poverty schools. We’re also in the struggle for access to high- quality educators, and in this country, Black and Latino students are less likely to have access to certified educators. Since 2021, 44 states have introduced legislation to censor discussions of race or institute book bans. Not only could these proposals deny students access to truthful, accurate school curricula and materials, these attacks are part of a larger effort to suppress the voice, history, and political participation of Black and LGBTQ Americans. And another final example would be access to coursework. Black students are still less likely to have access to advanced placement coursework as well as dual enrollment or dual credit programs. About only 35% of schools with high enrollments of Black and Latinx students offered calculus compared to 54% of schools with low enrollment of Black and Latinx students. And with all of these examples, we can see that racial segregation that persists within our public educational system results in racial inequality and educational resources and opportunities. It also jeopardizes the foundation of good citizenship, as stated in Brown. The public education is supposed to provide to the children responsible for the future of our multiracial democracy. And at LDF, we will not rest until all students have access to a safe, inclusive, and high- quality education.

Kanya Bennett: Hamida, thank you for breaking down Brown and for flagging those troubling stats and facts. I want to now turn to Saba. Saba, your organization, Brown’s Promise, will be just about a year old when we mark the 70th anniversary of the Brown decision on May 17th. I imagine your organization was formed in response to some of the school and education failings that Hamida just touched on. Talk to us about Brown’s Promise. Where has our society fallen short with respect to achieving true educational equality? And how will your organization work to ensure that the promise of Brown v. Board is achieved?

Saba Bireda: My co-founder, Ary Amerikaner, and I co- founded Brown’s Promise about a year ago. I promise we didn’t plan it to coincide with the 70th anniversary, but we’re very happy to be in existence to commemorate this important case. But we’ve been having conversations for years before that about the inextricable link between resource equity, so school funding, school resources, and school diversity, and the fact that the education field has really treated them as completely separate distinct conversations that rarely intersect. We see that in our policy. We see that in litigation. And in fact, it was really reflected in the time that Ary and I spent at the US Department of Education, where she primarily worked on school funding and resource equity and I had a portfolio that included school diversity and civil rights. And we should have been working together all the time, but we’re rarely in the same room talking about those topics together. And it’s really reflective of this greater disconnect where we basically stopped talking about integration as a tool to achieve resource equity, even though it’s one of the only proven strategies, we’ve seen work at scale in increasing educational opportunity in this country. We’re big fans of a book and a professor that you probably all know. Rucker Johnson, at UC Berkeley, wrote a book called Children of the Dream, which documents the educational outcomes for students who went through 12 years of court- ordered desegregation. They’re just phenomenal life- changing outcomes. And yet we walked away from integration and like to pretend that it didn’t have the effect that it did on low- income students and students of color. In a country that’s indelibly shaped by race and racism, at Brown’s Promise, we think as long as we tolerate separate segregated schools, we’re never going to be able to provide equitable access to the resources and opportunities that school- serving predominantly white kids receive. So 70 years after Brown, as Hamida talked about, we still see schools that serve primarily students of color, having more novice teachers, fewer educational supports, fewer advanced courses, and lower college- going rates. Of course, we have wonderful exceptions to that. We have some incredibly well- resourced and exceptional schools primarily serving students of color. But will we redesign our systems and structures to actually do separate and make them all equal schools? No, we’re not going to do that at scale. And so, at Brown’s Promise, we think if we want to end educational inequity, we have to end school segregation. And also, to echo Hamida’s point, it’s 2024. We are a multiracial democracy, and the idea that we will accept a future where the majority of students go to school with kids that look exactly like them and never have an opportunity to interact with kids from diverse backgrounds it’s just unacceptable for the future of our democracy. Public schools are one of the first and only places kids get a chance to learn to work together with people from different backgrounds and learn from different perspectives. And, of course, given the Supreme Court’s decision, SFFA diversity at K- 12 schools has just become all that more important. We’re working towards a future that we hope has more integrated, well- resourced schools. At Brown’s Promise, we’re working with local advocates who are interested in using state- level litigation as a tool to restart forward progress towards ending school segregation and advancing resource equity. We also support research, and we foster collaboration at the intersection of integration and resource equity, and we’re working to reinvigorate a national discussion about these issues like being on this podcast. And one last thing I want to say is that we are very mindful of the need to avoid repeating the challenges and mistakes of the past. Integration 1.0, as we often say at Brown’s Promise. As I said, it created tremendous, profound academic benefits for many students. But the costs were great too. We know the loss of jobs for Black educators if schools as community centers. I went through an integration program, and it was a challenging experience. I was the only Black kid in many of my classes from K through 12, and no student should have to pay that price just to get the resources that going to whiter and wealthier schools get. So we’re very cognizant of Brown’s Promise when we talk about integration 2.0. We have to learn from the challenges of the past and make sure that everyone benefits and that we don’t ask communities of color to really bear the burden of this effort.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Saba. We are glad to have Brown’s Promise in the mix. I now want to turn to my colleague Liz King. Liz, you lead our work here at the Leadership Conference around education. You steer its task force of coalition members in an effort to protect students from discrimination and to ensure equal educational opportunity. Can you tell us how you carry out this agenda and how you do so in the spirit of Brown?

Liz King: At the Leadership Conference, we use the tools of policy change, narrative change, and capacity building to really shift what is happening in the way that people are experiencing all of these systems. Today, we’re talking about the education system specifically. So within our education task force and across our education program, we’re looking at early childhood education and ensuring quality that means higher wages for educators who are disproportionately women of color. We’re talking about cultural responsiveness. Saba named some of the problems of integrated settings, but we know that even segregated settings don’t necessarily mean that a child’s full identity is affirmed. We’re looking at K- 12 schools and fighting for school discipline systems that are fair, that are accurate, that are providing for a high- quality education, and helping children learn from mistakes and grow together rather than be pushed out and segregated from their peers. We’re talking about inclusive curriculum. As Hamida noted, we need to make sure that our curriculum reflects the full diversity of our country so that all children have the opportunity to see themselves reflected and learn from our national past. We’re talking about equitable funding as such a core question, as Saba mentioned, whether educators are compensated, whether school buildings are adequate to the task, if children have the instructional resources they need to reach their full potential. We’re working on our higher education system and advocating for a system that is affordable, that is diverse and equitable. We’re not letting the Supreme Court’s decision in the SFFA case determine what is important to us. We know that a diverse and equitable higher education system is both possible and necessary. That we as a nation will not move forward until we’re reversing the past. We are no longer segregating children from opportunity but ensuring that at every level of education, every single child has the opportunity to be included in a warm, welcoming, and responsive school from early childhood through higher education that prepares them for college, careers, life, and the full exercise of their social, political and economic rights. We know this is all connected. There’s a reason that education and voting rights have been the twin pillars of the Civil Rights Movement for a long time. We know that education is about power. It’s about the power to decide where resources go, as Saba mentioned. The power to decide who has what knowledge, as Hamida talked about, and the power of individual agency for people to make their own decisions about who they elect, whether they run for office, and how they engage in the economic life of our country. So at the Leadership Conference, we’re working across all areas of education and really thinking intentionally and intersectionally across communities. We have the tremendous benefit of the leadership that was shown by Black children, by Black lawyers, by Black families, by Black educators in the Brown decision and what that has meant for freedom and opportunity for all children, whether they’re Black or other students of color and any other form of identity. We know that so much of the foundations of educational inequity in the United States are rooted in the denial of educational opportunity for Native children and the way in which our education system was used to take away culture and language and power and autonomy from Native people. So we benefit from that long- standing experience of shared oppression towards a movement for shared liberation, and we know that education has to be at the center of it because it is about power and access and opportunity.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Liz. I really appreciate you articulating this vision of freedom and opportunity that education can provide for all of our students. I want to dig a little deeper on some of the specific failings around school and educational equity. So Hamida, let’s go back to you. In what ways do under- resourced and segregated schools facilitate the school- to- prison pipeline by prioritizing the policing and criminalization of our students over education? What does the school- to- prison pipeline look like in practice and who is most impacted?

Hamida Labi: The school- to- prison pipeline, Kanya, refers to the funneling of students out of schools and into the juvenile correction system and other conditions that deprive children and youth of meaningful opportunities for education, future employment, and participation in our democracy. Racially isolated schools that primarily educate students of color are more likely to utilize the harshest, most exclusionary needs of discipline. This is a challenge that civil rights community has been working to tackle for many years, including with in partnership with the Leadership Conference and other key organizations. Still, nationwide, Black students are more likely to attend schools staffed with law enforcement, but no counselor, social worker, nurse or school psychologist. And while we recognize that the current administration has made strides in allocating funding and trying to prioritize access to mental health resources, school counselors, and other supports that could foster a positive school climate, we are still facing crisis- level conditions when it comes to equity and school safety as it pertains to discipline and policing. So how do we get here? Over the past three decades, a disturbing shift has occurred in our education system, and rather than employ traditional disciplinary measures such as counseling or in- school detention, when students misbehave, schools have become increasingly dependent on suspensions, expulsions, and referring students to law enforcement for punishment. Black students, students with disabilities, and other students continue to be arrested or removed from schools even from minor, age- appropriate behaviors at alarming rates across the country. According to the most recent civil rights data collection, Black students were almost twice as likely to be suspended or expelled compared to their white peers during the 2020-2021 school year. And all the Black students represented only 15% of total K- 12 student enrollment. They accounted for 18% of law enforcement referrals and 22% of those subjected to school- related arrests. There are thousands of preschool- age children that are suspended for age- appropriate behavior. In 2019, an eleven- year- old Black girl was arrested in New Mexico for taking too much milk in the cafeteria and being what they call disruptive. We are also seeing troubling trends and emerging issues and new ways that artificial intelligence and technology have expanded the footprint of law enforcement in educational settings through the use of surveillance, predictive policing, and facial recognition programs. We talk about Fulton County quite a bit, usually with the disparities in funding, but I want to talk a little bit about an observation made on this issue of the school- to- prison pipeline. As they were having conversations about the redrawing of school boundary lies, they held meetings in schools in both the north part of Fulton County as well as the southern part of Fulton County, and there was something that you noticed you just cannot ignore. When you walk into the school building in North Fulton County, which is predominantly white and is a high- wealth area of the district, when you walk into that building, you see art, you see writing, you see so many reflections of the type of school programs that are offered, the type of experts and community leaders that are brought in to pour into the students in that school. And although the meeting was held after school hours, just by walking in the building, you could get a feel how invested that school was into the well- being and educational success of their students. Conversely, in the other part of the county, where the majority of the students are Black students, and it’s in a low- wealth area of the district, when you walk in, there were signs everywhere. The only signs you saw on the wall were ones that said, ” You are being watched.” We have to not only tackle the issues that we have been dealing with for decades around suspension and expulsion, but we also really have to focus more on surveillance and how the technology cannot be a replacement for school- based law enforcement officers inside of school buildings. We really have to eliminate these conditions across the board that create harmful school climate that are not conducive to learning and safety for students. The reality is that many schools and districts have just systematically failed to meet their obligations under federal civil rights law. The research has shown that the presence of school- based law enforcement does not necessarily improve school safety. However, it does lead to poor discipline outcomes, and it also is correlated with decreased sense of safety at school for Black students. The responsibility of fostering positive school climates requires federal, state, and local action administratively and through Congress. Those that are most impacted our students and parents. They must remain at the center of the solution. And over the past few years, we have seen a growing student- led movement with an urgent hall from communities of color to remove school resource officers, security guards, and surveillance from these educational settings and reinvest that funding, oftentimes in the millions of dollars in evidence- based initiatives to support school safety and healthy school climates. But the solutions must also include educators, district leaders, community- based organizations, and civil rights organizations to continue to work to dismantle the school- to- prison pipeline, remove under surveillance, and other harmful technologies that criminalize Black children and other children consistent with this mission. LDF will continue to engage in legal and policy advocacy to eliminate disparities in school discipline, including an emerging issue of hair discrimination that has been sort of leading to suspensions and expulsions for students wearing their natural hair.

Kanya Bennett: Hamida, thank you. Saba, Hamida discussed how racial bias, the racial bias we find in the criminal legal system is also found in the classroom. It’s found in our school systems. We know that segregated schools are often the result of racism that permeates every aspect of our society, like housing and employment. If we have more diverse and integrated schools, how do we prevent systemic racism from impacting how students of color are treated by teachers and administrators? How do we ensure that high- stakes decisions like classroom and college placement are free from racial and other bias? How do we prevent the burden of integration from falling on the shoulders of our students of color?

Saba Bireda: So, first, I think we start from the place that real school integration does not just mean moving students from different backgrounds into the same school and then being like, ” We’re done.” We have to be very intentional about creating school environments that are inclusive for all students and actively work against the systemic racism that you just mentioned and that focus on inclusivity and systemic… and fighting systemic racism needs to be true of all schools, not just racially diverse ones. These are not problems that are just isolated to integrated schools. We also have to start from a place that recognizes all students benefit from diverse schools, not just students of color. There’s just a fallacy that somehow white students don’t also need the benefits that come from being in a diverse environment. We know research bears that out, that all students benefit. So whole communities, not just students of color and communities of color should also bear the burden of creating these diverse schools for our future multiracial democracy. So at Brown’s Promise, we think a lot about the strategic redrawing of district and school attendance zones that promote integration inaudible also, frankly, minimizing commute times. I mean, one of the challenges that we hear across communities in this country is, ” I’m not putting my kid on a bus for 30 minutes like they did in the 70s and 80s to a community where they’re not welcome.” We agree that’s not the future of diverse schools in this country that shouldn’t be borne again by students of color. But there are so many places. Hamida mentioned, we love the Fulton County example, which, if anyone pulls out a map and look at Fulton County, you can see the incredibly strangely drawn Fulton County schools that is drawn literally split in half around Atlanta public schools. But there are districts across this nation, tiny, tiny districts where we have high- wealth, predominantly white districts frankly just hoarding resources minutes away from low- wealth districts serving predominantly students of color. It’s very true in New Jersey, for example, that has something crazy like 300 or more school districts. We don’t need this new school districts. It’s inefficient and, frankly, often is a holdover from racist practices where people were trying to specifically segregate themselves and not have to share resources. We’re really interested in the work of Nabeel Gillani and Tyler Simko, is two researchers at Northeastern and Harvard, respectively, that are using sophisticated AI and big data tools to really think about how we can redraw school districts in a way that promotes integration. There are other things we have to be… to your question, have to be cognizant of as we are taking on these efforts. Transportation continues to be a major challenge. When we talk about trying to create new magnet schools or new school siting, the reality is that’s only going to come true if we have a way to get kids there. And low- income parents need to have the support of free transportation to make sure that their kids can have the opportunity to go diverse schools. Again, citing policies that ensure historic land or serve students are not bearing the burden of a disproportionate commute. We are excited about a program that’s in Dallas 50/ 50 schools. It’s a very popular district- wide magnet program that draws students from outside of the district, creates a diverse student population, and relies on race- neutral measures because we know that’s something we all need to be cognizant of. The need to have teaching staffs that are diverse is a humongous piece of this puzzle. Again, just moving students into a school and saying, ” We’re done,” is not sufficient, especially when we have teachers that have not had experience teaching students of color. There needs to be comprehensive professional development, cultural competency, and an acknowledgment that teachers need to learn that skill set to be able to teach a diverse student population. So to Hamida’s point, making sure there’s professional development on discipline and building a culture of belonging and additional supports for students who are enrolling in new schools. And again, this is not just students of color. Students need the support to understand how to function in an integrated environment. To your other question around systemic racism with regard to academic opportunities, we’re big proponents of automatic enrollment policies and universal screening to ensure all students who demonstrate readiness are granted access to advanced courses and minimize the bias that leads to tracking in schools. So we see automatic enrollment programs in Dallas, Washington State, and Tennessee. We have universal screening for gifted and talented in parts of Colorado. I cannot end without saying our line at Brown’s Promise is not just integrated schools. We talk about well- resourced integrated schools. School funding is a key part of this. We have to maintain and, in many places, increase funding for schools that are serving high numbers of students living in poverty.

Kanya Bennett: Liz, let me turn back to you. When we think about the Brown decision, we traditionally think about educational equity with respect to Black students and other students of color. We think about the Fulton County example that both Saba and Hamida just lifted. However, we know that the tactics and rhetoric around anti- student inclusion and integration have evolved, and we know that nearly all students who are not white, straight, and cisgender are impacted. So can you talk to us about the latest efforts to deny equitable education to various populations, including LGBTQ, disabled, and multilingual learners?

Liz King: First, we’re always thinking about how children are showing up with multiple identities. So when we’re talking about disabled students, we are also talking about Black students. When we’re talking about LGBTQ students, we’re also talking about Black students. Hamida was talking about the school- to- prison pipeline. We know that Black children with disabilities are more likely to experience violence in school through things like corporal punishment, seclusion, restraint, and school- based arrest. And those forms of violence are happening for white children with disabilities, for Black non- disabled children, but most especially for Black children with disabilities. For LGBTQ youth of color, we see bullying harassment from teachers in the classroom at higher rates. We see discriminatory school discipline used against Black queer students. When we think about denied educational opportunity for Black girls and women, we talk about the student loan debt burden is disproportionately held by Black women. So, the Leadership Conference, we’re always thinking intersectionally about the identities and about the diversity within individual communities. You rightly named that the Brown decision was a seminal moment for educational opportunity for all children, and it paved the way for Asian American children who are speaking a language other than English at home to benefit from services and supports at school that help them acquire English language proficiency while maintaining the proficiency in the language of their parents. We think about the way in which it means that access to higher- level courses for Latino students has been open because of the Brown decision. We think about the conversation around full inclusion and non- discrimination for LGBTQ students. So many of our foundational civil rights rest in the Brown decision and rest in those civil rights laws that originally grew out of the movement for Black liberation. We also know that it is not possible to maintain a welcoming and inclusive school for one group of children. If a school is welcoming and inclusive to Black children, that makes it more welcoming and inclusive to other children. There is no scenario. There is no we’re not going to see an environment in which Jewish students or Muslim students or Arab American students are experiencing discrimination, and that same hostility is not felt by other children in the school. Within the Leadership Conference, we always say, ” The struggle for civil and human rights will not be won by any one community alone. We all need to be in this together, not only because of the diversity within individual communities and the way in which people experience intersectional discrimination but because all of our liberations are tied together. None of us are free until all of us are free, and that no school is welcoming until it is welcoming for everyone.” There isn’t a scenario in which you say, ” Hey, this is a great school for white queer children, but it isn’t a great school for Asian American children who are queer.” We need to make sure that all of our children are being included in all of our schools. Saba mentioned all of the benefits conferred upon diversity, and also, there is no diversity. There’s no meaningful diversity without equity at the core. There needs to be equal opportunity for all of our children. And so, certainly, when we look at the law, when we look at non- discrimination, we’re thinking about how all of these things are connected. When we’re talking about intersectional identity, we’re thinking about all of the diversity within individual communities and also that educational quality, educational opportunity has to be about all children. When we’re looking at our data, we need to look at data that’s segregated and cross- tabulated across all of these dimensions. When we’re thinking about educator preparation, it cannot be only that you are prepared to teach one group of children. You are not a truly prepared educator unless you are in a position to support educational success for all of the children in your classroom. We know that when we push back on and ensure equal opportunity and non- discrimination, whether that’s accommodating Muslim students during Ramadan, creates a more welcoming environment for all of the children in the school building. Obviously, that’s a cornerstone for the Leadership Conference’s thinking about all of these ways in which students are experiencing this discrimination. And then all of the benefits conferred even upon white, cisgender, non- disabled, middle- class children benefit from a classroom environment in which no child is experiencing bullying and harassment. This resource hoarding that Saba mentioned has a really powerful short- term payoff and a really profound long- term penalty. We know the data. We know that our continued denial of educational opportunity to Black children is damaging our economy. It’s limiting our progress as a nation. We are not going to get where we need to be until we ensure meaningful educational opportunity for all children.

Kanya Bennett: Liz, that’s exactly right. Let us move toward some more solution- oriented talk. And so Saba, let me go back to you. I’m curious as to how litigation will be used as a tool to address school segregation going forward. Obviously, we’re talking about Brown at 70, right, and we’re talking about a court case that is responsible for the promise upon which educational equality sits. How do we pursue litigation going forward, and how do we do it, especially in this moment where we are seeing anti- affirmative action, anti- DEI cases that are making their way through the courts with some success?

Saba Bireda: We absolutely at Brown’s Promise continue to see litigation as an important tool going forward in addition to the many other tools in our toolbox of organizing and research and advocacy and policymaking. But we understand in this current environment that discussing diversity is challenging. Local and state leaders who want to do this work it often is the end of their career if they even talk about it. And so they need political cover that litigation frankly can provide. And we all know that sometimes having a court tell you what to do is a way to get there, right. So we see the danger that you’re referring to with regard to obviously SFFA and the other DEI cases, and those present some significant challenges for pursuing diversity at the higher ed level, certainly, and some other employment and other places. Although, yay for the Supreme Court not taking the TJ case. Let’s have a moment for some happy news there. But at Brown’s Promise, we are feeling emboldened by some of the litigation that we are seeing at the state court level. We’re really excited about two cases that are currently being litigated in state court, one in Minnesota and one in New Jersey. In Minnesota, the Cruz- Guzman case and in Minnesota Latino Action Network. And both cases allege that the state has facilitated and maintained a system of segregated schools that violates their state constitution. And both cases are alive and well and have decisions that have been favorable for the plaintiffs. And so we’re really excited to see what happens as they both potentially head to trial.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Saba. Hamida, let’s go back to policy. You had mentioned a few minutes ago that LDF is going to continue to lean into advocacy and policy at the local and state and federal levels. So can you talk a little bit more about how LDF plans to do that and how it may sort of prioritize the work with respect to policy, given that we’ve heard the litigation we need; it’s a tool; it’s a tactic. We are going to continue to use it. What does that look like with respect to policy? Are we leaning all the way in on that front too?

Hamida Labi: We have to lean in at all three at every level, local, state, and federal because those who oppose educational equity and racial justice are fighting at every level to upend that progress. This is happening at school board level, in school districts, across nearly every state legislature, at the State Board of Education, and in Congress. The list goes on. And so we have to be comprehensive and nimble in our approach and creative in how we sort of bring our expertise and our resources together, ranging from communications and narrative work to being really on the ground and doing that deep community organizing and partnership with grassroots organizations just to make sure that we really are firing on all cylinders to defeat these organizations and individuals who are fighting to go back to a time that harkens to before Brown was decided. I do want to… Before talking a little bit more about what LDF is focusing on, I did want to kind of draw our attention to a similarity that I’m finding in how folks in communities are responding to progress. So, if we look at the time where Brown was decided and we think about that period of massive resistance in southern state to oppose and try to get around what Brown clearly demanded to try to preserve school systems that were segregated and inequitable, we can kind of look at Virginia Governor Stanley’s establishment of the Commission on Public Education, or as folks referred to it, the Gray Commission. And in 1955, they issued a report asserting that compulsory integration should be resisted by all proper means in our power. They emphasize the importance of local school board discretion as a key strategy to oppose desegregation. Now, let’s fast- forward to 2020, where we had a period of racial reckoning where institutions across the public sector and private sector had to look at themselves and examine what role they have played in furthering systemic racism and inequality. There were obviously thousands of demonstrations in the middle of a global pandemic to try to draw attention to the devastation on individuals and all communities that systemic racism has inflicted on Black people and other communities. And if we recall, there was an executive order issued that created a President’s Advisory 1776 Commission following this sort of summer of this groundswell of a demand across the world for folks to address systemic racism. Now we have another commission. This executive order was issued on November 2nd, 2020, by President Trump. It is no coincidence that in their January 2021 report, they also lean into this piece around local school boards and states doing everything they can to defy what that sort of moment called for. And they argue that state and local governments, not the federal government, are responsible for adopting curricula. And they call on organizations and individuals in states and school districts to reject any curricula that promotes what they call a one- sided partisan opinion, activist propaganda, and, as they say, factual ideologies that demean America’s heritage and dishonor our heroes and deny their principles. And so, therefore, we need to make sure that we’re having an approach that centers opportunities at the local and state level to push back against this nationwide movement for racial justice.” So we had the Gray Commission post- Brown, and now we’re looking at what the 1776 Commission called for. Now while the Trump administration, he left the White House shortly after that report, was released, that call to action that they issued was taken up, as we know, in a very big way across the country as we talked about earlier, the more than 40 states where anti- truth legislation has been introduced. That is just at the state level. That doesn’t even scratch the surface of what has been happening at the local level. To this end, LDF has been fighting on every front as the country continues to face threats to truthful, inclusive education that have expanded to what we’re seeing now with this anti- DEI movement by folks who don’t even quite understand what diversity, equity, and inclusion looks like and means in the educational environment. So these overall attacks on diversity and the efforts to dismantle, as we saw again with the decision last year, to dismantle race- consciousness admissions programs, we must act diligently to carry forth Brown’s true intent to advance equal educational opportunities. So LDF has ongoing litigation to defend truth in Florida. And also, over the better part of the last four years, we have led legislative campaigns across the southern region to push back against effort to dismantle public education, censor the truthful teaching of American history, and prohibit discussions and programs that are meant to acknowledge and address systemic inequality. And we have been in states like Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and South Carolina. It is also important to note that we cannot only be on the defense. We must not only push back against these harmful narratives and these proposals at the state and local level that seek to upend progress when it comes to educational equity and throw us deeper into segregated, inequitable schools, we also have to advance a proactive vision of what it means for us to use the power of law, narrative, research, and people and stories to defend and advance the full dignity and citizenship of Black people in America. So in 2023, LDF did launch the Equal Protection Initiative, whose mission is fully realizing the US Constitution’s promise of equal protection under law by safeguarding, expanding, and deepening efforts to remove and remediate barriers for opportunity for Black people in the economy, our educational systems and through other areas that allow for our race- conscious and race- neutral means. We also have the Pro- Truth Initiative, where we continue to advocate across the southern region, as I said, to push back against these book bans and curricular censorship bills. So that work is also ongoing. But at the same time, we can’t step away from the other very pressing educational equity issues facing students, including resource equity, school infrastructure, school nutrition.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you. As troubling as it is for lifting up that 1776 Commission, its final report. Liz, I think at the start of this conversation, you linked education with voting. Folks, please, yes, vote. We are in an election year. Be registered, go to the polls, make sure that you are voting across the ballot, right. There may be school board votes. Every office is important. Let’s make sure that we’re showing up for that. Okay, so Liz, let me go back to you. You talked about intersectional identities that our students possess. You talked about the multiracial society in which we live. We at the Leadership Conference know we cannot do this work unless all of those identities are represented. We have to move forward in coalition. So considering the current political and social climate, what programs and strategies are you organizing across our broad, our diverse spectrum of coalition partners to combat efforts to undermine the progress towards educational equality envisioned by Brown?

Liz King: I think one piece I really want to lean in here is this narrative around who are parents, right. We are at this tremendous moment of opportunity in our education system, where the majority of students in our K- 12 system are not white. We have children bringing all sorts of languages and cultural background and previous experience to our schools. And yes, some children are disadvantaged by being surrounded by children who only look like them. But thankfully, a lot of other children have the opportunity to benefit from an educational experience in which children are walking into the classroom with a host of experiences and knowledge and information. And I think what we see as the Leadership Conference when we’re working together in coalition, we know, and the polling shows us over and over and over again, that our agenda in which we are supporting welcoming school environments for every child, when we are supporting access to an accurate curriculum, as Hamida talked about, one in which all children see themselves reflected and understand themselves to be the future leaders and the future builders of our multiracial, multilingual democracy, we see an opportunity as a coalition to advance this overwhelmingly popular agenda. This narrative around parents, this representation that parents in this country are white, they are bigoted, they want schools to be harder, they want schools to be more violent, they want children to be pushed out of schools, that does not reflect the overwhelming majority of parents. We know that parents of color are overrepresented in our education system. We know that parents themselves have disabilities or speak a language other than English at home. Really, we’re thinking about how can we, as a coalition, as a diverse coalition, move together to advance an educational system, which we know will benefit all students. It’s not that white men can’t be doctors, but we know that having more diverse doctors leads to better patient outcomes. And so, thinking backwards, what does that mean about educational opportunity? We know that more diverse boardrooms make better business decisions and make more money for companies. We know all of these things about the benefits of a diverse educational system in which all children meaningfully have the opportunity to learn, grow, and succeed. And so, that is the power of the coalition is working together and folks showing up and saying, ” This is what I have. This is what I need.” Working together in collective action because of the tremendous power of diverse voices. I think that’s one of the huge lessons of the Brown decision. Hamida and Saba have both talked about the forces that are working against us, the forces that seek to undermine our multiracial, multilingual democracy. And we know that the only path forward is the power of coalition. And that’s what’s so exciting about the Leadership Conference. Obviously, LDF is a core longtime member. We work closely with other partners who may not be members of the Leadership Conference, like Brown’s Promise, but what we see is that the future is about coalition. The future is about diverse voices coming together and demanding power and agency for all people, welcoming and inclusion for all people. And so really excited about that. Encourage folks to check out our website, sign up for our emails, take our actions, and really work together with us, as Hamida said, at the local level, at the school level, at the county level, at the city level, at the state level, and state legislatures and state executive branches at the federal level. There’s so much work to do, but if we all work together, when we all work together, we will all win together.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Liz, and we were so happy to have you on Pod for the Cause today, Liz. Thank you for being here.

Liz King: Thanks, Kanya. It’s really great to participate in the conversation.

Kanya Bennett: Saba, it has been an absolute pleasure. If there is anything that you want to leave our listeners with, please do so.

Saba Bireda: Thanks so much for having me. And I’ll just say I’m so excited to have colleagues like Hamida and Liz and LDF and the Leadership Conference in this historic continued fight to achieve justice for underserved students.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Saba. And Hamida, so happy you were on with us today. Is there anything you would like to leave our listeners with?

Hamida Labi: Thank you, Kanya. I really enjoyed this conversation and, of course, have the pleasure outside of this space to work with these wonderful people on this podcast. And I’m grateful for that. To learn more about LDF’s work and if you are in one of the states that we’re working in regarding Pro- Truth and the attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion, we love for you to reach out. More information can be found on our website, naacpldf. org. There are landing pages for folks in South Carolina and Texas to connect more specifically with the campaigns in their state, as well as if you are interested in engaging in that work in Georgia, you could also reach out to me H- L- A- B, as in boy, I @ naacpldf.org. I just am grateful to be in community with you all and look forward to the next decade for the next anniversary, big anniversary of Brown, where we can hopefully celebrate some big wins that we will accomplish together.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you for joining us today on Pod for the Cause, the official podcast of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, and the Leadership Conference Education Fund. For more information, please visit civilrights.org, and to connect with us, hit us up on Instagram and Twitter at civilrights. org. You can text us. Text Civil Rights, that’s two words, Civil Rights, to 52199 to keep up with our latest updates. Be sure to subscribe to our show on your favorite podcast app and leave a five- star review. Thanks to our production team, Shalonda Hunter, Dena Craig, Taelor Nicholas, Oprah Cunningham, and Eunic Epstein- Ortiz. And that’s it from me, your host, Kanya Bennett. Until next time, let’s keep fighting for an America as good as its ideals.

Kanya Bennett: Welcome to Pod for the Cause, the official podcast of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and the Leadership Conference Education Fund, where we take on the critical civil and human rights issues of our day. I’m your host, Kanya Bennett, coming to you from our nation’s capital, Washington, D. C. Pod for the Cause has returned from its April spring break, and as we head back to school and work and business as usual in May, the 70th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education is top of mind. That’s right. Brown v. Board is 70. It has been 70 years since the Supreme Court’s landmark Brown v. Board decision, but the sobering reality is that American schools remain starkly separate and profoundly unequal despite the Supreme Court’s historic declaration against racial segregation on May 17th, 1954. We have some sobering facts to contend with. Over half of the nation’s students find themselves in racially concentrated school districts where segregation persists, and educational resources vary widely along racial and socio- economic lines. Data also shows that as our Black and Brown students are denied educational opportunities, they are disproportionately represented within the criminal legal system, demonstrating a school- to- prison pipeline. As we recognize the anniversary of Brown v. Board, we must reckon with our separate and unequal history that continues to plague us. Today’s guests are here to remind us that the fight for educational equality is far from over and that urgent action is needed to address the ongoing legacy of segregation in our schools. Joining me on Pod for the Cause today are three education experts and advocates who are working to realize the promise of Brown day in and day out. Let’s first welcome Saba Bireda, co- founder and chief counsel of Brown’s Promise. Welcome Saba. Thank you for being here today.

Saba Bireda: Thanks for having me.

Kanya Bennett: We are joined by Hamida Labi, my former ACLU colleague and currently senior policy counsel at the Legal Defense Fund. Welcome Hamida. Thank you for your time today.

Hamida Labi: Thank you, Kanya. Excited to be here.

Kanya Bennett: And we also have our very own Liz King with us today. Liz is the senior program director for Education Equity here at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. She is our in- house ed expert. Welcome, Liz. Thank you for joining Pod for the Cause.

Liz King: Thanks, Kanya. Glad to be here.

Kanya Bennett: Hamida, let’s start with you. It was the Legal Defense Fund’s great legal minds and courageous clients that achieved the victory in Brown v. Board, in which the doctrine of separate but equal was deemed unconstitutional. In our nation’s fight for civil rights, Brown marked a defining moment in US history. LDF has acknowledged, however, that the legal win in Brown did not transform the country overnight, and much work remains. With Brown at 70, how will LDF acknowledge the anniversary and prioritize the work ahead?

Hamida Labi: We are so very excited to be here to discuss this seminal case and what it means for racial justice and educational equity today. Well, at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, we commemorate and rededicate ourselves each year to the legacy of Brown. We are so excited to embark on a year- long celebration for the 70th anniversary of the case that transformed America. Seven decades have passed since the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Brown v. Board of Education that Black people must be treated as equal persons deserving of the full rights of citizenship under the law. A crowning achievement for LDF founder Thurgood Marshall, alongside other visionary LDF attorneys. Brown is the culmination of legal acumen and political activism working together to challenge the hypocrisy of a democracy resting upon a racial hierarchy. And while this is wildly celebrated as an illustrious example of the strength of our constitutional principles, it would be a grave mistake to perceive Brown as the end rather than the means of our pursuit of racial equality. Despite progress, the ultimate goal of Brown was to guarantee equal access to a quality educational experience that respects the intelligence, dignity, and humanity of Black students. While our nation no longer condones explicit state- sanctioned racial segregation, we remain in this struggle for equality post- Brown. Let’s look at the data. According to the government accountability office, more than a third of students, that’s about 80. 5 million students, attended schools where 75% or more were of a single race or ethnicity. During the 2020 and 2021 school year. A nationwide analysis of school funding equity found that school districts with the most students of color, on average, received 16% less in states and local revenue than districts with the fewest students of color. If we take a specific state example, in Mississippi, Black students comprise 46% of the overall student population but make up 73% of students attending high- poverty schools. We’re also in the struggle for access to high- quality educators, and in this country, Black and Latino students are less likely to have access to certified educators. Since 2021, 44 states have introduced legislation to censor discussions of race or institute book bans. Not only could these proposals deny students access to truthful, accurate school curricula and materials, these attacks are part of a larger effort to suppress the voice, history, and political participation of Black and LGBTQ Americans. And another final example would be access to coursework. Black students are still less likely to have access to advanced placement coursework as well as dual enrollment or dual credit programs. About only 35% of schools with high enrollments of Black and Latinx students offered calculus compared to 54% of schools with low enrollment of Black and Latinx students. And with all of these examples, we can see that racial segregation that persists within our public educational system results in racial inequality and educational resources and opportunities. It also jeopardizes the foundation of good citizenship, as stated in Brown. The public education is supposed to provide to the children responsible for the future of our multiracial democracy. And at LDF, we will not rest until all students have access to a safe, inclusive, and high- quality education.

Kanya Bennett: Hamida, thank you for breaking down Brown and for flagging those troubling stats and facts. I want to now turn to Saba. Saba, your organization, Brown’s Promise, will be just about a year old when we mark the 70th anniversary of the Brown decision on May 17th. I imagine your organization was formed in response to some of the school and education failings that Hamida just touched on. Talk to us about Brown’s Promise. Where has our society fallen short with respect to achieving true educational equality? And how will your organization work to ensure that the promise of Brown v. Board is achieved?

Saba Bireda: My co-founder, Ary Amerikaner, and I co- founded Brown’s Promise about a year ago. I promise we didn’t plan it to coincide with the 70th anniversary, but we’re very happy to be in existence to commemorate this important case. But we’ve been having conversations for years before that about the inextricable link between resource equity, so school funding, school resources, and school diversity, and the fact that the education field has really treated them as completely separate distinct conversations that rarely intersect. We see that in our policy. We see that in litigation. And in fact, it was really reflected in the time that Ary and I spent at the US Department of Education, where she primarily worked on school funding and resource equity and I had a portfolio that included school diversity and civil rights. And we should have been working together all the time, but we’re rarely in the same room talking about those topics together. And it’s really reflective of this greater disconnect where we basically stopped talking about integration as a tool to achieve resource equity, even though it’s one of the only proven strategies, we’ve seen work at scale in increasing educational opportunity in this country. We’re big fans of a book and a professor that you probably all know. Rucker Johnson, at UC Berkeley, wrote a book called Children of the Dream, which documents the educational outcomes for students who went through 12 years of court- ordered desegregation. They’re just phenomenal life- changing outcomes. And yet we walked away from integration and like to pretend that it didn’t have the effect that it did on low- income students and students of color. In a country that’s indelibly shaped by race and racism, at Brown’s Promise, we think as long as we tolerate separate segregated schools, we’re never going to be able to provide equitable access to the resources and opportunities that school- serving predominantly white kids receive. So 70 years after Brown, as Hamida talked about, we still see schools that serve primarily students of color, having more novice teachers, fewer educational supports, fewer advanced courses, and lower college- going rates. Of course, we have wonderful exceptions to that. We have some incredibly well- resourced and exceptional schools primarily serving students of color. But will we redesign our systems and structures to actually do separate and make them all equal schools? No, we’re not going to do that at scale. And so, at Brown’s Promise, we think if we want to end educational inequity, we have to end school segregation. And also, to echo Hamida’s point, it’s 2024. We are a multiracial democracy, and the idea that we will accept a future where the majority of students go to school with kids that look exactly like them and never have an opportunity to interact with kids from diverse backgrounds it’s just unacceptable for the future of our democracy. Public schools are one of the first and only places kids get a chance to learn to work together with people from different backgrounds and learn from different perspectives. And, of course, given the Supreme Court’s decision, SFFA diversity at K- 12 schools has just become all that more important. We’re working towards a future that we hope has more integrated, well- resourced schools. At Brown’s Promise, we’re working with local advocates who are interested in using state- level litigation as a tool to restart forward progress towards ending school segregation and advancing resource equity. We also support research, and we foster collaboration at the intersection of integration and resource equity, and we’re working to reinvigorate a national discussion about these issues like being on this podcast. And one last thing I want to say is that we are very mindful of the need to avoid repeating the challenges and mistakes of the past. Integration 1.0, as we often say at Brown’s Promise. As I said, it created tremendous, profound academic benefits for many students. But the costs were great too. We know the loss of jobs for Black educators if schools as community centers. I went through an integration program, and it was a challenging experience. I was the only Black kid in many of my classes from K through 12, and no student should have to pay that price just to get the resources that going to whiter and wealthier schools get. So we’re very cognizant of Brown’s Promise when we talk about integration 2.0. We have to learn from the challenges of the past and make sure that everyone benefits and that we don’t ask communities of color to really bear the burden of this effort.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Saba. We are glad to have Brown’s Promise in the mix. I now want to turn to my colleague Liz King. Liz, you lead our work here at the Leadership Conference around education. You steer its task force of coalition members in an effort to protect students from discrimination and to ensure equal educational opportunity. Can you tell us how you carry out this agenda and how you do so in the spirit of Brown?

Liz King: At the Leadership Conference, we use the tools of policy change, narrative change, and capacity building to really shift what is happening in the way that people are experiencing all of these systems. Today, we’re talking about the education system specifically. So within our education task force and across our education program, we’re looking at early childhood education and ensuring quality that means higher wages for educators who are disproportionately women of color. We’re talking about cultural responsiveness. Saba named some of the problems of integrated settings, but we know that even segregated settings don’t necessarily mean that a child’s full identity is affirmed. We’re looking at K- 12 schools and fighting for school discipline systems that are fair, that are accurate, that are providing for a high- quality education, and helping children learn from mistakes and grow together rather than be pushed out and segregated from their peers. We’re talking about inclusive curriculum. As Hamida noted, we need to make sure that our curriculum reflects the full diversity of our country so that all children have the opportunity to see themselves reflected and learn from our national past. We’re talking about equitable funding as such a core question, as Saba mentioned, whether educators are compensated, whether school buildings are adequate to the task, if children have the instructional resources they need to reach their full potential. We’re working on our higher education system and advocating for a system that is affordable, that is diverse and equitable. We’re not letting the Supreme Court’s decision in the SFFA case determine what is important to us. We know that a diverse and equitable higher education system is both possible and necessary. That we as a nation will not move forward until we’re reversing the past. We are no longer segregating children from opportunity but ensuring that at every level of education, every single child has the opportunity to be included in a warm, welcoming, and responsive school from early childhood through higher education that prepares them for college, careers, life, and the full exercise of their social, political and economic rights. We know this is all connected. There’s a reason that education and voting rights have been the twin pillars of the Civil Rights Movement for a long time. We know that education is about power. It’s about the power to decide where resources go, as Saba mentioned. The power to decide who has what knowledge, as Hamida talked about, and the power of individual agency for people to make their own decisions about who they elect, whether they run for office, and how they engage in the economic life of our country. So at the Leadership Conference, we’re working across all areas of education and really thinking intentionally and intersectionally across communities. We have the tremendous benefit of the leadership that was shown by Black children, by Black lawyers, by Black families, by Black educators in the Brown decision and what that has meant for freedom and opportunity for all children, whether they’re Black or other students of color and any other form of identity. We know that so much of the foundations of educational inequity in the United States are rooted in the denial of educational opportunity for Native children and the way in which our education system was used to take away culture and language and power and autonomy from Native people. So we benefit from that long- standing experience of shared oppression towards a movement for shared liberation, and we know that education has to be at the center of it because it is about power and access and opportunity.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Liz. I really appreciate you articulating this vision of freedom and opportunity that education can provide for all of our students. I want to dig a little deeper on some of the specific failings around school and educational equity. So Hamida, let’s go back to you. In what ways do under- resourced and segregated schools facilitate the school- to- prison pipeline by prioritizing the policing and criminalization of our students over education? What does the school- to- prison pipeline look like in practice and who is most impacted?

Hamida Labi: The school- to- prison pipeline, Kanya, refers to the funneling of students out of schools and into the juvenile correction system and other conditions that deprive children and youth of meaningful opportunities for education, future employment, and participation in our democracy. Racially isolated schools that primarily educate students of color are more likely to utilize the harshest, most exclusionary needs of discipline. This is a challenge that civil rights community has been working to tackle for many years, including with in partnership with the Leadership Conference and other key organizations. Still, nationwide, Black students are more likely to attend schools staffed with law enforcement, but no counselor, social worker, nurse or school psychologist. And while we recognize that the current administration has made strides in allocating funding and trying to prioritize access to mental health resources, school counselors, and other supports that could foster a positive school climate, we are still facing crisis- level conditions when it comes to equity and school safety as it pertains to discipline and policing. So how do we get here? Over the past three decades, a disturbing shift has occurred in our education system, and rather than employ traditional disciplinary measures such as counseling or in- school detention, when students misbehave, schools have become increasingly dependent on suspensions, expulsions, and referring students to law enforcement for punishment. Black students, students with disabilities, and other students continue to be arrested or removed from schools even from minor, age- appropriate behaviors at alarming rates across the country. According to the most recent civil rights data collection, Black students were almost twice as likely to be suspended or expelled compared to their white peers during the 2020-2021 school year. And all the Black students represented only 15% of total K- 12 student enrollment. They accounted for 18% of law enforcement referrals and 22% of those subjected to school- related arrests. There are thousands of preschool- age children that are suspended for age- appropriate behavior. In 2019, an eleven- year- old Black girl was arrested in New Mexico for taking too much milk in the cafeteria and being what they call disruptive. We are also seeing troubling trends and emerging issues and new ways that artificial intelligence and technology have expanded the footprint of law enforcement in educational settings through the use of surveillance, predictive policing, and facial recognition programs. We talk about Fulton County quite a bit, usually with the disparities in funding, but I want to talk a little bit about an observation made on this issue of the school- to- prison pipeline. As they were having conversations about the redrawing of school boundary lies, they held meetings in schools in both the north part of Fulton County as well as the southern part of Fulton County, and there was something that you noticed you just cannot ignore. When you walk into the school building in North Fulton County, which is predominantly white and is a high- wealth area of the district, when you walk into that building, you see art, you see writing, you see so many reflections of the type of school programs that are offered, the type of experts and community leaders that are brought in to pour into the students in that school. And although the meeting was held after school hours, just by walking in the building, you could get a feel how invested that school was into the well- being and educational success of their students. Conversely, in the other part of the county, where the majority of the students are Black students, and it’s in a low- wealth area of the district, when you walk in, there were signs everywhere. The only signs you saw on the wall were ones that said, ” You are being watched.” We have to not only tackle the issues that we have been dealing with for decades around suspension and expulsion, but we also really have to focus more on surveillance and how the technology cannot be a replacement for school- based law enforcement officers inside of school buildings. We really have to eliminate these conditions across the board that create harmful school climate that are not conducive to learning and safety for students. The reality is that many schools and districts have just systematically failed to meet their obligations under federal civil rights law. The research has shown that the presence of school- based law enforcement does not necessarily improve school safety. However, it does lead to poor discipline outcomes, and it also is correlated with decreased sense of safety at school for Black students. The responsibility of fostering positive school climates requires federal, state, and local action administratively and through Congress. Those that are most impacted our students and parents. They must remain at the center of the solution. And over the past few years, we have seen a growing student- led movement with an urgent hall from communities of color to remove school resource officers, security guards, and surveillance from these educational settings and reinvest that funding, oftentimes in the millions of dollars in evidence- based initiatives to support school safety and healthy school climates. But the solutions must also include educators, district leaders, community- based organizations, and civil rights organizations to continue to work to dismantle the school- to- prison pipeline, remove under surveillance, and other harmful technologies that criminalize Black children and other children consistent with this mission. LDF will continue to engage in legal and policy advocacy to eliminate disparities in school discipline, including an emerging issue of hair discrimination that has been sort of leading to suspensions and expulsions for students wearing their natural hair.

Kanya Bennett: Hamida, thank you. Saba, Hamida discussed how racial bias, the racial bias we find in the criminal legal system is also found in the classroom. It’s found in our school systems. We know that segregated schools are often the result of racism that permeates every aspect of our society, like housing and employment. If we have more diverse and integrated schools, how do we prevent systemic racism from impacting how students of color are treated by teachers and administrators? How do we ensure that high- stakes decisions like classroom and college placement are free from racial and other bias? How do we prevent the burden of integration from falling on the shoulders of our students of color?

Saba Bireda: So, first, I think we start from the place that real school integration does not just mean moving students from different backgrounds into the same school and then being like, ” We’re done.” We have to be very intentional about creating school environments that are inclusive for all students and actively work against the systemic racism that you just mentioned and that focus on inclusivity and systemic… and fighting systemic racism needs to be true of all schools, not just racially diverse ones. These are not problems that are just isolated to integrated schools. We also have to start from a place that recognizes all students benefit from diverse schools, not just students of color. There’s just a fallacy that somehow white students don’t also need the benefits that come from being in a diverse environment. We know research bears that out, that all students benefit. So whole communities, not just students of color and communities of color should also bear the burden of creating these diverse schools for our future multiracial democracy. So at Brown’s Promise, we think a lot about the strategic redrawing of district and school attendance zones that promote integration inaudible also, frankly, minimizing commute times. I mean, one of the challenges that we hear across communities in this country is, ” I’m not putting my kid on a bus for 30 minutes like they did in the 70s and 80s to a community where they’re not welcome.” We agree that’s not the future of diverse schools in this country that shouldn’t be borne again by students of color. But there are so many places. Hamida mentioned, we love the Fulton County example, which, if anyone pulls out a map and look at Fulton County, you can see the incredibly strangely drawn Fulton County schools that is drawn literally split in half around Atlanta public schools. But there are districts across this nation, tiny, tiny districts where we have high- wealth, predominantly white districts frankly just hoarding resources minutes away from low- wealth districts serving predominantly students of color. It’s very true in New Jersey, for example, that has something crazy like 300 or more school districts. We don’t need this new school districts. It’s inefficient and, frankly, often is a holdover from racist practices where people were trying to specifically segregate themselves and not have to share resources. We’re really interested in the work of Nabeel Gillani and Tyler Simko, is two researchers at Northeastern and Harvard, respectively, that are using sophisticated AI and big data tools to really think about how we can redraw school districts in a way that promotes integration. There are other things we have to be… to your question, have to be cognizant of as we are taking on these efforts. Transportation continues to be a major challenge. When we talk about trying to create new magnet schools or new school siting, the reality is that’s only going to come true if we have a way to get kids there. And low- income parents need to have the support of free transportation to make sure that their kids can have the opportunity to go diverse schools. Again, citing policies that ensure historic land or serve students are not bearing the burden of a disproportionate commute. We are excited about a program that’s in Dallas 50/ 50 schools. It’s a very popular district- wide magnet program that draws students from outside of the district, creates a diverse student population, and relies on race- neutral measures because we know that’s something we all need to be cognizant of. The need to have teaching staffs that are diverse is a humongous piece of this puzzle. Again, just moving students into a school and saying, ” We’re done,” is not sufficient, especially when we have teachers that have not had experience teaching students of color. There needs to be comprehensive professional development, cultural competency, and an acknowledgment that teachers need to learn that skill set to be able to teach a diverse student population. So to Hamida’s point, making sure there’s professional development on discipline and building a culture of belonging and additional supports for students who are enrolling in new schools. And again, this is not just students of color. Students need the support to understand how to function in an integrated environment. To your other question around systemic racism with regard to academic opportunities, we’re big proponents of automatic enrollment policies and universal screening to ensure all students who demonstrate readiness are granted access to advanced courses and minimize the bias that leads to tracking in schools. So we see automatic enrollment programs in Dallas, Washington State, and Tennessee. We have universal screening for gifted and talented in parts of Colorado. I cannot end without saying our line at Brown’s Promise is not just integrated schools. We talk about well- resourced integrated schools. School funding is a key part of this. We have to maintain and, in many places, increase funding for schools that are serving high numbers of students living in poverty.

Kanya Bennett: Liz, let me turn back to you. When we think about the Brown decision, we traditionally think about educational equity with respect to Black students and other students of color. We think about the Fulton County example that both Saba and Hamida just lifted. However, we know that the tactics and rhetoric around anti- student inclusion and integration have evolved, and we know that nearly all students who are not white, straight, and cisgender are impacted. So can you talk to us about the latest efforts to deny equitable education to various populations, including LGBTQ, disabled, and multilingual learners?

Liz King: First, we’re always thinking about how children are showing up with multiple identities. So when we’re talking about disabled students, we are also talking about Black students. When we’re talking about LGBTQ students, we’re also talking about Black students. Hamida was talking about the school- to- prison pipeline. We know that Black children with disabilities are more likely to experience violence in school through things like corporal punishment, seclusion, restraint, and school- based arrest. And those forms of violence are happening for white children with disabilities, for Black non- disabled children, but most especially for Black children with disabilities. For LGBTQ youth of color, we see bullying harassment from teachers in the classroom at higher rates. We see discriminatory school discipline used against Black queer students. When we think about denied educational opportunity for Black girls and women, we talk about the student loan debt burden is disproportionately held by Black women. So, the Leadership Conference, we’re always thinking intersectionally about the identities and about the diversity within individual communities. You rightly named that the Brown decision was a seminal moment for educational opportunity for all children, and it paved the way for Asian American children who are speaking a language other than English at home to benefit from services and supports at school that help them acquire English language proficiency while maintaining the proficiency in the language of their parents. We think about the way in which it means that access to higher- level courses for Latino students has been open because of the Brown decision. We think about the conversation around full inclusion and non- discrimination for LGBTQ students. So many of our foundational civil rights rest in the Brown decision and rest in those civil rights laws that originally grew out of the movement for Black liberation. We also know that it is not possible to maintain a welcoming and inclusive school for one group of children. If a school is welcoming and inclusive to Black children, that makes it more welcoming and inclusive to other children. There is no scenario. There is no we’re not going to see an environment in which Jewish students or Muslim students or Arab American students are experiencing discrimination, and that same hostility is not felt by other children in the school. Within the Leadership Conference, we always say, ” The struggle for civil and human rights will not be won by any one community alone. We all need to be in this together, not only because of the diversity within individual communities and the way in which people experience intersectional discrimination but because all of our liberations are tied together. None of us are free until all of us are free, and that no school is welcoming until it is welcoming for everyone.” There isn’t a scenario in which you say, ” Hey, this is a great school for white queer children, but it isn’t a great school for Asian American children who are queer.” We need to make sure that all of our children are being included in all of our schools. Saba mentioned all of the benefits conferred upon diversity, and also, there is no diversity. There’s no meaningful diversity without equity at the core. There needs to be equal opportunity for all of our children. And so, certainly, when we look at the law, when we look at non- discrimination, we’re thinking about how all of these things are connected. When we’re talking about intersectional identity, we’re thinking about all of the diversity within individual communities and also that educational quality, educational opportunity has to be about all children. When we’re looking at our data, we need to look at data that’s segregated and cross- tabulated across all of these dimensions. When we’re thinking about educator preparation, it cannot be only that you are prepared to teach one group of children. You are not a truly prepared educator unless you are in a position to support educational success for all of the children in your classroom. We know that when we push back on and ensure equal opportunity and non- discrimination, whether that’s accommodating Muslim students during Ramadan, creates a more welcoming environment for all of the children in the school building. Obviously, that’s a cornerstone for the Leadership Conference’s thinking about all of these ways in which students are experiencing this discrimination. And then all of the benefits conferred even upon white, cisgender, non- disabled, middle- class children benefit from a classroom environment in which no child is experiencing bullying and harassment. This resource hoarding that Saba mentioned has a really powerful short- term payoff and a really profound long- term penalty. We know the data. We know that our continued denial of educational opportunity to Black children is damaging our economy. It’s limiting our progress as a nation. We are not going to get where we need to be until we ensure meaningful educational opportunity for all children.

Kanya Bennett: Liz, that’s exactly right. Let us move toward some more solution- oriented talk. And so Saba, let me go back to you. I’m curious as to how litigation will be used as a tool to address school segregation going forward. Obviously, we’re talking about Brown at 70, right, and we’re talking about a court case that is responsible for the promise upon which educational equality sits. How do we pursue litigation going forward, and how do we do it, especially in this moment where we are seeing anti- affirmative action, anti- DEI cases that are making their way through the courts with some success?

Saba Bireda: We absolutely at Brown’s Promise continue to see litigation as an important tool going forward in addition to the many other tools in our toolbox of organizing and research and advocacy and policymaking. But we understand in this current environment that discussing diversity is challenging. Local and state leaders who want to do this work it often is the end of their career if they even talk about it. And so they need political cover that litigation frankly can provide. And we all know that sometimes having a court tell you what to do is a way to get there, right. So we see the danger that you’re referring to with regard to obviously SFFA and the other DEI cases, and those present some significant challenges for pursuing diversity at the higher ed level, certainly, and some other employment and other places. Although, yay for the Supreme Court not taking the TJ case. Let’s have a moment for some happy news there. But at Brown’s Promise, we are feeling emboldened by some of the litigation that we are seeing at the state court level. We’re really excited about two cases that are currently being litigated in state court, one in Minnesota and one in New Jersey. In Minnesota, the Cruz- Guzman case and in Minnesota Latino Action Network. And both cases allege that the state has facilitated and maintained a system of segregated schools that violates their state constitution. And both cases are alive and well and have decisions that have been favorable for the plaintiffs. And so we’re really excited to see what happens as they both potentially head to trial.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Saba. Hamida, let’s go back to policy. You had mentioned a few minutes ago that LDF is going to continue to lean into advocacy and policy at the local and state and federal levels. So can you talk a little bit more about how LDF plans to do that and how it may sort of prioritize the work with respect to policy, given that we’ve heard the litigation we need; it’s a tool; it’s a tactic. We are going to continue to use it. What does that look like with respect to policy? Are we leaning all the way in on that front too?

Hamida Labi: We have to lean in at all three at every level, local, state, and federal because those who oppose educational equity and racial justice are fighting at every level to upend that progress. This is happening at school board level, in school districts, across nearly every state legislature, at the State Board of Education, and in Congress. The list goes on. And so we have to be comprehensive and nimble in our approach and creative in how we sort of bring our expertise and our resources together, ranging from communications and narrative work to being really on the ground and doing that deep community organizing and partnership with grassroots organizations just to make sure that we really are firing on all cylinders to defeat these organizations and individuals who are fighting to go back to a time that harkens to before Brown was decided. I do want to… Before talking a little bit more about what LDF is focusing on, I did want to kind of draw our attention to a similarity that I’m finding in how folks in communities are responding to progress. So, if we look at the time where Brown was decided and we think about that period of massive resistance in southern state to oppose and try to get around what Brown clearly demanded to try to preserve school systems that were segregated and inequitable, we can kind of look at Virginia Governor Stanley’s establishment of the Commission on Public Education, or as folks referred to it, the Gray Commission. And in 1955, they issued a report asserting that compulsory integration should be resisted by all proper means in our power. They emphasize the importance of local school board discretion as a key strategy to oppose desegregation. Now, let’s fast- forward to 2020, where we had a period of racial reckoning where institutions across the public sector and private sector had to look at themselves and examine what role they have played in furthering systemic racism and inequality. There were obviously thousands of demonstrations in the middle of a global pandemic to try to draw attention to the devastation on individuals and all communities that systemic racism has inflicted on Black people and other communities. And if we recall, there was an executive order issued that created a President’s Advisory 1776 Commission following this sort of summer of this groundswell of a demand across the world for folks to address systemic racism. Now we have another commission. This executive order was issued on November 2nd, 2020, by President Trump. It is no coincidence that in their January 2021 report, they also lean into this piece around local school boards and states doing everything they can to defy what that sort of moment called for. And they argue that state and local governments, not the federal government, are responsible for adopting curricula. And they call on organizations and individuals in states and school districts to reject any curricula that promotes what they call a one- sided partisan opinion, activist propaganda, and, as they say, factual ideologies that demean America’s heritage and dishonor our heroes and deny their principles. And so, therefore, we need to make sure that we’re having an approach that centers opportunities at the local and state level to push back against this nationwide movement for racial justice.” So we had the Gray Commission post- Brown, and now we’re looking at what the 1776 Commission called for. Now while the Trump administration, he left the White House shortly after that report, was released, that call to action that they issued was taken up, as we know, in a very big way across the country as we talked about earlier, the more than 40 states where anti- truth legislation has been introduced. That is just at the state level. That doesn’t even scratch the surface of what has been happening at the local level. To this end, LDF has been fighting on every front as the country continues to face threats to truthful, inclusive education that have expanded to what we’re seeing now with this anti- DEI movement by folks who don’t even quite understand what diversity, equity, and inclusion looks like and means in the educational environment. So these overall attacks on diversity and the efforts to dismantle, as we saw again with the decision last year, to dismantle race- consciousness admissions programs, we must act diligently to carry forth Brown’s true intent to advance equal educational opportunities. So LDF has ongoing litigation to defend truth in Florida. And also, over the better part of the last four years, we have led legislative campaigns across the southern region to push back against effort to dismantle public education, censor the truthful teaching of American history, and prohibit discussions and programs that are meant to acknowledge and address systemic inequality. And we have been in states like Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and South Carolina. It is also important to note that we cannot only be on the defense. We must not only push back against these harmful narratives and these proposals at the state and local level that seek to upend progress when it comes to educational equity and throw us deeper into segregated, inequitable schools, we also have to advance a proactive vision of what it means for us to use the power of law, narrative, research, and people and stories to defend and advance the full dignity and citizenship of Black people in America. So in 2023, LDF did launch the Equal Protection Initiative, whose mission is fully realizing the US Constitution’s promise of equal protection under law by safeguarding, expanding, and deepening efforts to remove and remediate barriers for opportunity for Black people in the economy, our educational systems and through other areas that allow for our race- conscious and race- neutral means. We also have the Pro- Truth Initiative, where we continue to advocate across the southern region, as I said, to push back against these book bans and curricular censorship bills. So that work is also ongoing. But at the same time, we can’t step away from the other very pressing educational equity issues facing students, including resource equity, school infrastructure, school nutrition.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you. As troubling as it is for lifting up that 1776 Commission, its final report. Liz, I think at the start of this conversation, you linked education with voting. Folks, please, yes, vote. We are in an election year. Be registered, go to the polls, make sure that you are voting across the ballot, right. There may be school board votes. Every office is important. Let’s make sure that we’re showing up for that. Okay, so Liz, let me go back to you. You talked about intersectional identities that our students possess. You talked about the multiracial society in which we live. We at the Leadership Conference know we cannot do this work unless all of those identities are represented. We have to move forward in coalition. So considering the current political and social climate, what programs and strategies are you organizing across our broad, our diverse spectrum of coalition partners to combat efforts to undermine the progress towards educational equality envisioned by Brown?

Liz King: I think one piece I really want to lean in here is this narrative around who are parents, right. We are at this tremendous moment of opportunity in our education system, where the majority of students in our K- 12 system are not white. We have children bringing all sorts of languages and cultural background and previous experience to our schools. And yes, some children are disadvantaged by being surrounded by children who only look like them. But thankfully, a lot of other children have the opportunity to benefit from an educational experience in which children are walking into the classroom with a host of experiences and knowledge and information. And I think what we see as the Leadership Conference when we’re working together in coalition, we know, and the polling shows us over and over and over again, that our agenda in which we are supporting welcoming school environments for every child, when we are supporting access to an accurate curriculum, as Hamida talked about, one in which all children see themselves reflected and understand themselves to be the future leaders and the future builders of our multiracial, multilingual democracy, we see an opportunity as a coalition to advance this overwhelmingly popular agenda. This narrative around parents, this representation that parents in this country are white, they are bigoted, they want schools to be harder, they want schools to be more violent, they want children to be pushed out of schools, that does not reflect the overwhelming majority of parents. We know that parents of color are overrepresented in our education system. We know that parents themselves have disabilities or speak a language other than English at home. Really, we’re thinking about how can we, as a coalition, as a diverse coalition, move together to advance an educational system, which we know will benefit all students. It’s not that white men can’t be doctors, but we know that having more diverse doctors leads to better patient outcomes. And so, thinking backwards, what does that mean about educational opportunity? We know that more diverse boardrooms make better business decisions and make more money for companies. We know all of these things about the benefits of a diverse educational system in which all children meaningfully have the opportunity to learn, grow, and succeed. And so, that is the power of the coalition is working together and folks showing up and saying, ” This is what I have. This is what I need.” Working together in collective action because of the tremendous power of diverse voices. I think that’s one of the huge lessons of the Brown decision. Hamida and Saba have both talked about the forces that are working against us, the forces that seek to undermine our multiracial, multilingual democracy. And we know that the only path forward is the power of coalition. And that’s what’s so exciting about the Leadership Conference. Obviously, LDF is a core longtime member. We work closely with other partners who may not be members of the Leadership Conference, like Brown’s Promise, but what we see is that the future is about coalition. The future is about diverse voices coming together and demanding power and agency for all people, welcoming and inclusion for all people. And so really excited about that. Encourage folks to check out our website, sign up for our emails, take our actions, and really work together with us, as Hamida said, at the local level, at the school level, at the county level, at the city level, at the state level, and state legislatures and state executive branches at the federal level. There’s so much work to do, but if we all work together, when we all work together, we will all win together.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Liz, and we were so happy to have you on Pod for the Cause today, Liz. Thank you for being here.

Liz King: Thanks, Kanya. It’s really great to participate in the conversation.

Kanya Bennett: Saba, it has been an absolute pleasure. If there is anything that you want to leave our listeners with, please do so.

Saba Bireda: Thanks so much for having me. And I’ll just say I’m so excited to have colleagues like Hamida and Liz and LDF and the Leadership Conference in this historic continued fight to achieve justice for underserved students.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you, Saba. And Hamida, so happy you were on with us today. Is there anything you would like to leave our listeners with?

Hamida Labi: Thank you, Kanya. I really enjoyed this conversation and, of course, have the pleasure outside of this space to work with these wonderful people on this podcast. And I’m grateful for that. To learn more about LDF’s work and if you are in one of the states that we’re working in regarding Pro- Truth and the attacks on diversity, equity, and inclusion, we love for you to reach out. More information can be found on our website, naacpldf. org. There are landing pages for folks in South Carolina and Texas to connect more specifically with the campaigns in their state, as well as if you are interested in engaging in that work in Georgia, you could also reach out to me H- L- A- B, as in boy, I @ naacpldf.org. I just am grateful to be in community with you all and look forward to the next decade for the next anniversary, big anniversary of Brown, where we can hopefully celebrate some big wins that we will accomplish together.

Kanya Bennett: Thank you for joining us today on Pod for the Cause, the official podcast of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, and the Leadership Conference Education Fund. For more information, please visit civilrights.org, and to connect with us, hit us up on Instagram and Twitter at civilrights. org. You can text us. Text Civil Rights, that’s two words, Civil Rights, to 52199 to keep up with our latest updates. Be sure to subscribe to our show on your favorite podcast app and leave a five- star review. Thanks to our production team, Shalonda Hunter, Dena Craig, Taelor Nicholas, Oprah Cunningham, and Eunic Epstein- Ortiz. And that’s it from me, your host, Kanya Bennett. Until next time, let’s keep fighting for an America as good as its ideals.

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